Mike Huckabee, Christiofacist

UPDATE: You may also be interested in The Boston Globe’s editorial Islamofascism’s ill political wind. From the piece:

The pairing of “Islam” and “fascism” has no parallel in characterizations of extremisms tied to other religions, although the defining movements of fascism were linked to Catholicism – indirectly under Benito Mussolini in Italy, explicitly under Francisco Franco in Spain. Protestant and Catholic terrorists in Northern Ireland, both deserving the label “fascist,” never had their religions prefixed to that word. Nor have Hindu extremists in India, nor Buddhist extremists in Sri Lanka.

No really: watch the clip. Or read the quote:

I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. But I believe it’s a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And thats what we need to do is amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards rather than trying to change God’s standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family.

And what scares me even more is that the majority of the Christians in this country wouldn’t see one thing wrong with doing so. The same folks who cower under their blankets fearing ‘Islamofacism’ — a buzzword that denies our effed-up neo-colonial policies as a contributing factor to the current rage against us — are completely okay with making the rest of us conform to the Jesus-loving variant* that I’ll call Christiofacism.

As an atheist with Buddhist leanings who would be one of the first victims of a Christian Society**, this scares me.

*Mind you, Jesus-loving is not the problem. The problem is when we argue that Christianity should be the single, universal moral basis for making laws.

**No, we are not currently a Christian Society or a Christian Nation. We are a society and a state with a predominantly Christian population. There is a difference. Our founders were clear about the role the state in religion and religion in the state, though they were clear that their religion guided their politics.

http://www.m-solo.com/ Markus

Tiffany, I SOOO disagree. I think the large majority of Christians would be repulsed by Huckebee’s statement. Saying “that the majority of the Christians in this country wouldn’t see one thing wrong with this” is like saying that the majority of Islamics agree with Osama Bin Laden’s rhetoric. This was a radical statement uttered by a radical man. He does not speak for Christians!
http://www.m-solo.com Markus

Tiffany, I SOOO disagree. I think the large majority of Christians would be repulsed by Huckebee’s statement. Saying “that the majority of the Christians in this country wouldn’t see one thing wrong with this” is like saying that the majority of Islamics agree with Osama Bin Laden’s rhetoric. This was a radical statement uttered by a radical man. He does not speak for Christians!
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

Call me cynical then.

I don’t think most Christians are radical, but I do think most Christians in this country think of themselves as ‘good people’ and therefore wouldn’t fear a Christian Nation in the same way Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and atheists would. After all, if he loves Jesus, how bad can he be, right?

And let me add that by “Christian” I don’t mean folks who only go to church on Easter Sunday and Christmas Day and then only if Big Mama makes them go. I mean folks for whom the Bible is The Word period full-stop.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

Call me cynical then.

I don’t think most Christians are radical, but I do think most Christians in this country think of themselves as ‘good people’ and therefore wouldn’t fear a Christian Nation in the same way Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and atheists would. After all, if he loves Jesus, how bad can he be, right?

And let me add that by “Christian” I don’t mean folks who only go to church on Easter Sunday and Christmas Day and then only if Big Mama makes them go. I mean folks for whom the Bible is The Word period full-stop.
http://m-solo.com/ Markus

Just because a person love Jesus, doesn’t give them permission to screw around with the Constitution. As an atheist, I am sure you wouldn’t want the constitution rewritten to prohibit all religion, so why would you think any less of Christians? I think the majority of Christians are smart enough to understand and appreciate the first amendment, and Thomas Jefferson’s wall of separation between church and state. I don’t know why the radicals have convinced you of the contrary.
http://m-solo.com Markus

Just because a person love Jesus, doesn’t give them permission to screw around with the Constitution. As an atheist, I am sure you wouldn’t want the constitution rewritten to prohibit all religion, so why would you think any less of Christians? I think the majority of Christians are smart enough to understand and appreciate the first amendment, and Thomas Jefferson’s wall of separation between church and state. I don’t know why the radicals have convinced you of the contrary.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

“… so why would you think any less of Christians.”

Because Huckabee was elected governor of Arkansas. He won the Iowa Republican caucus. He has the second highest number of delegates among Republican candidates. How radical can he be compared to the electorate if he’s pulling such numbers?

Huckabee seems nice enough, y’know? He seems like a good guy. He seems like an honest guy. And therein lies the problem: people don’t think nice, good, and honest people would ever do something like, oh, seize power, force women to drop out of schools and wear burqas. Or exterminate 6 million Jews, gypsies, gays and sympathizers.

Remember: the Taliban initially had the support of Afghanistan’s people. Adolf Hitler was elected (he consolidated power afterwards). Even Hugo Chavez in Venezuela is trying to pull a bait and switch. People don’t realize what they’re getting into until they’re knee-deep in it.

It’s not far-fetched.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

“… so why would you think any less of Christians.”

Because Huckabee was elected governor of Arkansas. He won the Iowa Republican caucus. He has the second highest number of delegates among Republican candidates. How radical can he be compared to the electorate if he’s pulling such numbers?

Huckabee seems nice enough, y’know? He seems like a good guy. He seems like an honest guy. And therein lies the problem: people don’t think nice, good, and honest people would ever do something like, oh, seize power, force women to drop out of schools and wear burqas. Or exterminate 6 million Jews, gypsies, gays and sympathizers.

Remember: the Taliban initially had the support of Afghanistan’s people. Adolf Hitler was elected (he consolidated power afterwards). Even Hugo Chavez in Venezuela is trying to pull a bait and switch. People don’t realize what they’re getting into until they’re knee-deep in it.

It’s not far-fetched.
chris

The only “good nice honest people” who have ever “seized power” would be the founders of the United States of America. Adolf Hitler was never said to have been a good nice person, nor Stalin, Kim Jong Ill or the Khmer Rouge. Those people were power-hungry, hateful/evil people to start and took control/scared people into giving it to them/killed people to get it. It’s real alarmist with the constitution we have and the checks and balances that anyone could seize power even if they wanted to. The document is written in a way that can’t happen. One huge barrier is the american people themselves. Americans won’t stand for anyone trying to do that. That’s one reason we have the right to bear arms so if the gov’t even tried to do something the people would have the ability to defend themselves. Just as an atheist might be scared (for some reason) about what they think someone who is a christian might try and do if elected, you have to look at things from a christian perspective too about what someone who doesn’t believe in God might do if elected. We wouldn’t want some Godless person to come in and outlaw religion, ban church services, sign off on abortion on demand, sign a law establishing gay marriage, make drugs legal. Christianity is about freedom and not about forcing anything down anyone’s throat. The seperation of church and state is not mentioned in the constitution at all. It was a letter written to the churches from Thomas Jefferson telling the people not to worry. There was a “one-way” wall of seperation between the church and state. It was a wall to keep the state out of faith matters but the founders fully intended for christians to have an affect on the government. It’s a good thing. The first thing that hitler’s, stalins and other people do after they “seize power” is kill the priests and tear down the churches and put worship of the state in its place. They knew that where God is the people yearn for freedom. I don’t see the what the cause for alarm might be. This is the only really free country on the planet because of it christian roots. Here we don’t go around lobbing bombs at other churches/faiths/denominations. We don’t ever worry about religious based violence in the U.S. on saturday or sunday mornings. We let each other be and do their thang. To compare christians to islam in any way is wayyyyyy off. We have muslim people who come here to escape the violence of their homelands to come here to live/worship their way to have a modicum of peace. Islam=submission. They want you to submit to their religion. Christianity is not that way.
chris

The only “good nice honest people” who have ever “seized power” would be the founders of the United States of America. Adolf Hitler was never said to have been a good nice person, nor Stalin, Kim Jong Ill or the Khmer Rouge. Those people were power-hungry, hateful/evil people to start and took control/scared people into giving it to them/killed people to get it. It’s real alarmist with the constitution we have and the checks and balances that anyone could seize power even if they wanted to. The document is written in a way that can’t happen. One huge barrier is the american people themselves. Americans won’t stand for anyone trying to do that. That’s one reason we have the right to bear arms so if the gov’t even tried to do something the people would have the ability to defend themselves. Just as an atheist might be scared (for some reason) about what they think someone who is a christian might try and do if elected, you have to look at things from a christian perspective too about what someone who doesn’t believe in God might do if elected. We wouldn’t want some Godless person to come in and outlaw religion, ban church services, sign off on abortion on demand, sign a law establishing gay marriage, make drugs legal. Christianity is about freedom and not about forcing anything down anyone’s throat. The seperation of church and state is not mentioned in the constitution at all. It was a letter written to the churches from Thomas Jefferson telling the people not to worry. There was a “one-way” wall of seperation between the church and state. It was a wall to keep the state out of faith matters but the founders fully intended for christians to have an affect on the government. It’s a good thing. The first thing that hitler’s, stalins and other people do after they “seize power” is kill the priests and tear down the churches and put worship of the state in its place. They knew that where God is the people yearn for freedom. I don’t see the what the cause for alarm might be. This is the only really free country on the planet because of it christian roots. Here we don’t go around lobbing bombs at other churches/faiths/denominations. We don’t ever worry about religious based violence in the U.S. on saturday or sunday mornings. We let each other be and do their thang. To compare christians to islam in any way is wayyyyyy off. We have muslim people who come here to escape the violence of their homelands to come here to live/worship their way to have a modicum of peace. Islam=submission. They want you to submit to their religion. Christianity is not that way.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

Again Chris: Hitler was elected.

Generally speaking, totalitarian states don’t just spring up and say “Ha ha b*tches. We run this now.” There’s a progression over time. There’s a gradual eroding of rights and privileges. Next thing you know you’re in the middle of something and wonder how you got there. See Hugo Chavez.

Consider this small example: we don’t even get upset about the government randomly wiretapping our phones because, as most Americans say “I’m not a terrorist. I’m not a criminal. I have nothing to hide.” We’re completely comfortable with the idea that the government can, will, and does listen to our phone calls because we’re not the targets, right? Except if we’re peace activists. Or labor organizers. Or political opponents. Oh, but, it hasn’t happened yet, you say. Or has it and we just don’t know?

“We wouldn’t want some Godless person to come in and outlaw religion, ban church services, sign off on abortion on demand, sign a law establishing gay marriage, make drugs legal. Christianity is about freedom and not about forcing anything down anyone’s throat.“

Except when it comes to telling people to believe in a savior, who they can and cannot marry, when and whether they can use birth control, when and whether to give birth, when and whether to have sex, what substances they can put into their bodies, and what to teach our kids about science. At least that’s the M.O. of American Christians.

Again: I never said that Christianity was the problem. Christianists — and those who are dismissive of or minimize the wishes of those Americans who do want a theocracy — are the problem. Your statement “I don’t see the what the cause for alarm might be” is exactly why I’m alarmed. Christianists here wouldn’t have to “seize” power. Americans Christians would vote them in assuming all of their rhetoric about loving God and Jesus was true and that their belief automatically makes them Good People.

“The first thing that Hitlers, Stalins and other people do after they ‘seize power’ is kill the priests and tear down the churches and put worship of the state in its place.”

Ah, so it wouldn’t be possible, then, for a Christian to come to power, declare belief in Jesus the law of the land and make all clergy persons agents of the state? Or outlaw those denominations that do allow gay marriage? Not even, if as Huckabee suggests, we rewrote the Constitution? Or maybe you’d be okay with such a rewrite.

And to counter your first argument: our founding fathers were self-interested capitalists hell-bent on protecting and increasing their wealth and power. If you believe they were “good people,” then please explain the slave trade, and the decimation of aboriginal Americans. Please explain why women could not own or inherit property until the mid 1800s or vote until 1920. Please explain why originally only land owners — and in some states, only those who met minimum land ownership requirements — could vote. We’re not as “good” or “honest” of a country as we like to tell ourselves.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

Again Chris: Hitler was elected.

Generally speaking, totalitarian states don’t just spring up and say “Ha ha b*tches. We run this now.” There’s a progression over time. There’s a gradual eroding of rights and privileges. Next thing you know you’re in the middle of something and wonder how you got there. See Hugo Chavez.

Consider this small example: we don’t even get upset about the government randomly wiretapping our phones because, as most Americans say “I’m not a terrorist. I’m not a criminal. I have nothing to hide.” We’re completely comfortable with the idea that the government can, will, and does listen to our phone calls because we’re not the targets, right? Except if we’re peace activists. Or labor organizers. Or political opponents. Oh, but, it hasn’t happened yet, you say. Or has it and we just don’t know?

“We wouldn’t want some Godless person to come in and outlaw religion, ban church services, sign off on abortion on demand, sign a law establishing gay marriage, make drugs legal. Christianity is about freedom and not about forcing anything down anyone’s throat.“

Except when it comes to telling people to believe in a savior, who they can and cannot marry, when and whether they can use birth control, when and whether to give birth, when and whether to have sex, what substances they can put into their bodies, and what to teach our kids about science. At least that’s the M.O. of American Christians.

Again: I never said that Christianity was the problem. Christianists — and those who are dismissive of or minimize the wishes of those Americans who do want a theocracy — are the problem. Your statement “I don’t see the what the cause for alarm might be” is exactly why I’m alarmed. Christianists here wouldn’t have to “seize” power. Americans Christians would vote them in assuming all of their rhetoric about loving God and Jesus was true and that their belief automatically makes them Good People.

“The first thing that Hitlers, Stalins and other people do after they ‘seize power’ is kill the priests and tear down the churches and put worship of the state in its place.”

Ah, so it wouldn’t be possible, then, for a Christian to come to power, declare belief in Jesus the law of the land and make all clergy persons agents of the state? Or outlaw those denominations that do allow gay marriage? Not even, if as Huckabee suggests, we rewrote the Constitution? Or maybe you’d be okay with such a rewrite.

And to counter your first argument: our founding fathers were self-interested capitalists hell-bent on protecting and increasing their wealth and power. If you believe they were “good people,” then please explain the slave trade, and the decimation of aboriginal Americans. Please explain why women could not own or inherit property until the mid 1800s or vote until 1920. Please explain why originally only land owners — and in some states, only those who met minimum land ownership requirements — could vote. We’re not as “good” or “honest” of a country as we like to tell ourselves.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

One more thing: ‘Islam=submission’ in the same way that Christian wives are compelled to “submit unto their husbands” and both are commanded to “submit unto God.”

Where this becomes totalitarian and dangerous is when we say that our state is God ordained and our laws must conform to God’s will and we don’t all agree that there is a God and/or what his will actually is.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

One more thing: ‘Islam=submission’ in the same way that Christian wives are compelled to “submit unto their husbands” and both are commanded to “submit unto God.”

Where this becomes totalitarian and dangerous is when we say that our state is God ordained and our laws must conform to God’s will and we don’t all agree that there is a God and/or what his will actually is.
http://www.rashidmuhammad.com/ Rashid Z. Muhammad

I agree that Christianity is why this country is so great. It was Christianity that drove the founders of this country out of Europe and to the realization that 1) Christians are not above despotism, 2) the church has no place in state affairs, and most importantly 3) even given its significant drawbacks, freedom for everyone will always outweigh top-down governance by edict.

A lot can be said about the realization of some of these ideals with respect to women and minorities, but one can also contrast the US civil rights movement and women’s suffrage movements against others around the world where citizens tried to get their governments to act right and appreciate the principles upon which this country is built which are actually at odds with theocratic governments which are, by nature, much ~~less~~ more resistant to change.
http://www.rashidmuhammad.com Rashid Z. Muhammad

I agree that Christianity is why this country is so great. It was Christianity that drove the founders of this country out of Europe and to the realization that 1) Christians are not above despotism, 2) the church has no place in state affairs, and most importantly 3) even given its significant drawbacks, freedom for everyone will always outweigh top-down governance by edict.

A lot can be said about the realization of some of these ideals with respect to women and minorities, but one can also contrast the US civil rights movement and women’s suffrage movements against others around the world where citizens tried to get their governments to act right and appreciate the principles upon which this country is built which are actually at odds with theocratic governments which are, by nature, much ~~less~~ more resistant to change.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

@Rashid: I edited your comment to change “less” to “more” and deleted your comment that corrected the sentence.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

@Rashid: I edited your comment to change “less” to “more” and deleted your comment that corrected the sentence.
Keith

Tiffany, you mentioned you were an atheist, so from the point of view of an atheist why would it be wrong for the people of Germany to elect Hitler, and the extermination of millions of people? Or what if a society wanted a to be governed by theocracy? You don’t believe in God, so you have no ultimate authority except what that society (or any society), at that time deems right, (Hitler was elected).

You are just a product of your environment, governed by nothing more than chemical reactions in your brain. You seem to have made some moral judgments here in your comments also, (good, rights), what is the basis for your morality? Also, you have used reason and logic to make your points here, were does logic, reason, or human dignity come from from the point of view of an atheist?
Keith

Tiffany, you mentioned you were an atheist, so from the point of view of an atheist why would it be wrong for the people of Germany to elect Hitler, and the extermination of millions of people? Or what if a society wanted a to be governed by theocracy? You don’t believe in God, so you have no ultimate authority except what that society (or any society), at that time deems right, (Hitler was elected).

You are just a product of your environment, governed by nothing more than chemical reactions in your brain. You seem to have made some moral judgments here in your comments also, (good, rights), what is the basis for your morality? Also, you have used reason and logic to make your points here, were does logic, reason, or human dignity come from from the point of view of an atheist?
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

@Keith: I assume you’re not an atheist? So where does the basis for your morality originate? And why do you believe it? Do you need God to be ethical and moral? Would you inherently know right-from-wrong if you weren’t told which was which? Or do you think it’s possible to believe in human decency, truth, fairness, and equity without believing in some dude on a throne in the sky? Or do you just not have any morality or ethics rendering both of our questions kind of pointless?

“You are just a product of your environment, governed by nothing more than chemical reactions in your brain.”

Perhaps. But wouldn’t that make you the same? Or does belief in a deity not make it not so?

But perhaps the most pertinent questions for this discussion are:

(a) What do any of your questions have to do with the idea that a particular religion should not be the single guiding force for making laws, especially in a country whose citizens have diverse beliefs? and;

(b) What does that have to do with my contention — based on a fairly extensive track record — that neither Christians nor Americans are above the same racial, ethnic or religious violence that we decry when committed by other countries?

And since it looks like you missed the footnote, I’ll restate my point: Christianists — that is, would-be theocrats whose belief is Christianity — are no less disturbing to me than any other kind of theocrat and we should all be more careful about whom we vote for if we want to avoid a theocracy.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

@Keith: I assume you’re not an atheist? So where does the basis for your morality originate? And why do you believe it? Do you need God to be ethical and moral? Would you inherently know right-from-wrong if you weren’t told which was which? Or do you think it’s possible to believe in human decency, truth, fairness, and equity without believing in some dude on a throne in the sky? Or do you just not have any morality or ethics rendering both of our questions kind of pointless?

“You are just a product of your environment, governed by nothing more than chemical reactions in your brain.”

Perhaps. But wouldn’t that make you the same? Or does belief in a deity not make it not so?

But perhaps the most pertinent questions for this discussion are:

(a) What do any of your questions have to do with the idea that a particular religion should not be the single guiding force for making laws, especially in a country whose citizens have diverse beliefs? and;

(b) What does that have to do with my contention — based on a fairly extensive track record — that neither Christians nor Americans are above the same racial, ethnic or religious violence that we decry when committed by other countries?

And since it looks like you missed the footnote, I’ll restate my point: Christianists — that is, would-be theocrats whose belief is Christianity — are no less disturbing to me than any other kind of theocrat and we should all be more careful about whom we vote for if we want to avoid a theocracy.
http://www.rashidmuhammad.com/ Rashid Z. Muhammad

I’m not an atheist, but the idea that people needed the ten commandments to know that stealing, killing, lying, and adultery were bad things is a bit well… ridiculous.
http://www.rashidmuhammad.com Rashid Z. Muhammad

I’m not an atheist, but the idea that people needed the ten commandments to know that stealing, killing, lying, and adultery were bad things is a bit well… ridiculous.
Keith

I am a Christian, and since all knowledge is deposited in Christ and man’s knowledge of the truth depends upon God’s prior knowledge I presuppose the truthfulness of the bible and the absolute truth of God’s word. Why do I believe this? Because the bible is pre-conditioned for intelligibility, take logic for instance, how as an atheist do you account for an impersonal, universal, immaterial, abstract entity, principled law that’s eternal? My answer would be: The Transcendental Argument for the Existence of God; logic has existed eternally in the mind of God, and we have the ability to reason to the laws of logic because we are made in God’s image. The transcendental argument does not depend on space time and matter, it is independent of space time and matter.

As for morality, an atheist cannot make a moral claim without an objective moral standard otherwise all morality reduces to subjectivity and your morality, or your moral claims, or your moral assertions or complaints are no more valid than the next guys. As far as inherently knowing right from wrong, yes, all men have the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness as stated in Romans 2:15, but as stated in Romans 1:18 [men suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them].

Because I know that I am created in the image of God, I know that God is the only eternal reasonable being, and I know that because God has made me, that I have the ability to reason according to the laws of logic. Only the Christian world view can explain reality. Does your world view comport to reality, reasonable thinking, uniformity of nature. You can deduce from the word of God the reality of the world. And you could have all these benefits including the salvation of your sinful soul!

As far as your concern about this country being controlled by a theocracy; no way, not as long as “the god of this world” [2 Corinthians 4:4] has a vote anyway.
Keith

I am a Christian, and since all knowledge is deposited in Christ and man’s knowledge of the truth depends upon God’s prior knowledge I presuppose the truthfulness of the bible and the absolute truth of God’s word. Why do I believe this? Because the bible is pre-conditioned for intelligibility, take logic for instance, how as an atheist do you account for an impersonal, universal, immaterial, abstract entity, principled law that’s eternal? My answer would be: The Transcendental Argument for the Existence of God; logic has existed eternally in the mind of God, and we have the ability to reason to the laws of logic because we are made in God’s image. The transcendental argument does not depend on space time and matter, it is independent of space time and matter.

As for morality, an atheist cannot make a moral claim without an objective moral standard otherwise all morality reduces to subjectivity and your morality, or your moral claims, or your moral assertions or complaints are no more valid than the next guys. As far as inherently knowing right from wrong, yes, all men have the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness as stated in Romans 2:15, but as stated in Romans 1:18 [men suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them].

Because I know that I am created in the image of God, I know that God is the only eternal reasonable being, and I know that because God has made me, that I have the ability to reason according to the laws of logic. Only the Christian world view can explain reality. Does your world view comport to reality, reasonable thinking, uniformity of nature. You can deduce from the word of God the reality of the world. And you could have all these benefits including the salvation of your sinful soul!

As far as your concern about this country being controlled by a theocracy; no way, not as long as “the god of this world” [2 Corinthians 4:4] has a vote anyway.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

Actually, atheists *CAN* and *DO* make moral claims. There are a few centuries worth of secular humanist and free thought writings that discuss the subject, not to mention Hindu and Buddhist atheistic traditions.

I’ll point you to Rashid’s comment above, and add that from a practical standpoint, it’s pretty hard to live in a stable society without some sort of rules. If it makes you feel better to believe that they are or need to be God-ordained, knock yourself out.
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/ tiffany

Actually, atheists *CAN* and *DO* make moral claims. There are a few centuries worth of secular humanist and free thought writings that discuss the subject, not to mention Hindu and Buddhist atheistic traditions.

I’ll point you to Rashid’s comment above, and add that from a practical standpoint, it’s pretty hard to live in a stable society without some sort of rules. If it makes you feel better to believe that they are or need to be God-ordained, knock yourself out.
Keith

No, you missed my point, and that was my fault, I did not word it very carefully, of course atheists, Hindu’s, and Buddhist can make moral claims, and be very caring loving moral people, its just that THEY CANNOT ACCOUNT for morality. In a materialistic universe there are no laws, much less laws of morality that we have to live up to. Thy can describe it, they CANNOT prescribe it.

Only in a theistic universe can laws of logic and morality be accounted for, (from the mind of God, as I explained in a previous post), so of course the atheist employ logic and morality every day, because they are created in the image of God.

And because you do use logic, you have a conscience, and are a moral human being, in so doing you give continual evidence of the fact that in your heart of hearts you know you are not an atheist.
Keith

No, you missed my point, and that was my fault, I did not word it very carefully, of course atheists, Hindu’s, and Buddhist can make moral claims, and be very caring loving moral people, its just that THEY CANNOT ACCOUNT for morality. In a materialistic universe there are no laws, much less laws of morality that we have to live up to. Thy can describe it, they CANNOT prescribe it.

Only in a theistic universe can laws of logic and morality be accounted for, (from the mind of God, as I explained in a previous post), so of course the atheist employ logic and morality every day, because they are created in the image of God.

And because you do use logic, you have a conscience, and are a moral human being, in so doing you give continual evidence of the fact that in your heart of hearts you know you are not an atheist.

Tiffany B. Brown

a mish-mosh of stuff

Mike Huckabee, Christiofacist